You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor faint when you are reproed by Him; For those who the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives." It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. (Hebrews 12:4:11)
These false teachers explain that God disciplines us because of the sins we commit, and since all true sons of God are disciplined, that must mean that all true Christians sin. Supposedly, anyone who doesn’t undergo this discipline due to their own sin must not be a true son.
As is the case with many false doctrines, the teachers fail to consider the passage in it larger context, and they bring a preconceived doctrine to the text, causing them to miss the obvious meaning.
Sin is mentioned only once in this passage, “You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin.” I can’t see how teachers come up with the idea that this sin is instigated by the person being disciplined. Resisting your own sin to the point of shedding blood? Frankly, avoiding sin is much easier than that.
The larger context reveals what the writer is talking about. He has just finished a long description of people who have been faithful, from Abel in chapter 11, verse 4, to, as the chapter ends, a list of those who suffered because of their faith.
Others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. (Hebrews 11:36-38)
In the chapter twelve passage, then, the writer is comparing his readers to those he wrote about earlier. His readers had not yet resisted sin to the point that these other people did, to the point of shedding blood. This sin is not their own sin; it is the sin of others, the sin of their persecutors.
The verse immediately preceding the chapter 12 section makes this obvious.
For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. (Hebrews 12:3)
It is crystal clear that this is talking about the sin of the persecutors, not the sin of those being disciplined.
Therefore, being disciplined as a son means that God is using persecutions to shape the son, to make him strong, to allow him to share in God’s holiness.
It’s important to understand that holiness is not merely sinlessness. It is being set apart for a purpose, to act according to all that God has in mind for us. We cannot complete that task until we are made ready for it, and our preparation includes suffering, often at the hands of sinners.
This happened even to Jesus.
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. (Hebrews 2:10)
Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation (Hebrews 5:8-9)
Jesus endured this discipline, the sin that others brought against Him. As verse 3 in chapter 12 says, we are to “consider Him,” the one who endured the sin of others. Obviously we are being told to consider Him as an example, the reason being to endure as He endured, not regarding our own sin, but with reference to the sins of others.
Teachers who use this passage to indicate that all sons of God continue in sin are destroying the true meaning. The passage is meant to encourage obedient followers who are suffering at the hand of persecutors. It is telling them that faithful people have had it worse, and they made it through. There is a cloud of witnesses surrounding them (Hebrews 12:1) to counteract the sin that also surrounds. Follow in the footsteps of the forerunners, the enduring martyrs. Their light will lead the way.
This passage has been used against me in the past.
ReplyDeleteI have believed for a while that the discipline talked about in this passage is not something we face because of sins we commit, but it is God's means of shaping us for the work He has planned for us.
In fact, the false interpretation only works if "for your sin" is repeatedly inserted into the passage. Since that phrase does not appear, it makes no sense to insist upon it.
There must be something ingrained in the professed church that automatically makes them associate "discipline" with "punishment." Why is this, do you think? Does it have something to do with these professed believers needing to be reprimanded and, yes, punished for their actions?
Also, if you carry this conclusion that it is talking about Christians to sin, God must not be very effective. When I was young, I learned that doing something wrong resulted in a spanking or getting privilages taken away so I pretty much stopped doing those things. Now, I didn't stop altogether but the fear of the punishment kept me in line altogether.
ReplyDeleteIf discipline spoken of here is for these "Christians" who sin every day in thought, word, and deed, I should think God would need to improve His methods as seem rather ineffective in the lives of those claiming this.
CFA
It's kind of sad how people will go so far as saying that we have to be getting punished by God, or else we're not obeying Him...they're obsession with sin makes them blindly contradict themselves, just so they don't have to accept the freedom and life that Christ offers. *sighs*
ReplyDeleteThis was helfpul. Thank you.
Great post! That makes perfect sense to me.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kriegal, it seems much too often people correlate punishment and disclipline. It's sad, really...
There is a large difference between the two.
A question, if I may: God calls David a man after His own heart. But later in life, after established a king, after writing a great many psalms, defeating Goliath, and doing many other great works for God, in His name, David commits adultery and murders a man. He takes Bathsheba, destroying her husband. Would you say that this was not sin? Or was David not a Christian? Or do the same rules not apply to those before Christ?
ReplyDeleteScotland, God called David a man after His own heart before he did all those things. David's heart became corrupt. He definitely sinned. We see that he later repented.
ReplyDeleteDavid could not have been a "Christian," by name, of course, but the important fact is that he lived before the coming of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, which became a reality at Pentecost. This regenerating power was not available to David. He was under the Old Covenant.
It is the New Covenant that provides the power to live a holy life, and all believers under this covenant have that power available to them.
Ah, okay. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteI was just wondering.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Philipians 3:12, "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."
I just find it hard to believe that a Christian has the ability to not sin at all after coming to Christ. Our sins are paid for, and we are told to no longer live willfully in sin, but I don't think this means that we don't sin at all. I don't know a single Christian who, after turning to Christ, never sinned again. The Bible exhorts us to follow God's commands, and we are made perfect by Christ's sacrifice, but that doesn't mean that after we become Christians we will never again disobey Him, not even once.
"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who spekas to the Father in our defense-Jesus Christ, the Righteous one. He is the atoning sacrifece for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (1st John 2:1)
I do not in any way claim to have much in the way of wisdom, but I know that I am a Christian, and am earnestly seeking Christ daily, but there are times when I make a wrong decision, I still sin.
Lightbearer, the verse in Philippians is talking about being perfect in knowledge. Right before verse 12, Paul said, "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing about being perfect in obedience in that passage. His lack of perfection is in knowledge.
Why should it be hard to believe that a Christian can live without sin? The Bible says that they do:
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)
And we can resist all temptations:
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. (1 Corinthians 10:13)
And we overwhelmingly conquer:
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. (Romans 8:37)
I will be discussing the 1 John 2 passage in a future post, but, for now, I will point out the pronoun issue. John says if "anybody" sins "we" have one who speaks. It isn't the person who sins that has someone. We do, real Christians. And the words "in our defense" are not in the Greek. That is an NIV interpretation, not an accurate translation. You won't do well if you use the NIV for study.
Again, I will cover this more thoroughly in a later post.
In any case, I haven't sinned since I became a Christian, and my testimony matches what the Bible teaches.
I agree with Lightbearer I find it very hard to believe that after you are a Christian you don't sin. That is impossible. We are men and not perfect like God so we still sin. Being Christians means we cannot any longer intentionally live a sinful life. That doesn't mean that it won't still happen or God won't forgive us though. God will allow trials and troubles to come. God still gives us free choice. Not to sound rude but you are saying that since you became a Christian you have never had impure thoughts or have never spoken harshly to someone? Somehow I just don't believe that.
ReplyDeleteMiles, it is not only possible to live without sin; it is commanded:
ReplyDeleteBut like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY." (1 Peter 1:15-16)
And it is testified to be true in the Bible, as I quoted earlier.
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)
And again:
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. (1 John 4:17)
And again:
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; (1 John 2:3-4)
I have not had any impure thoughts since becoming a Christian. I have spoken harshly when the situation called for it. Jesus did that, too. Read Matthew 23 and you will see an example.
If you sin, then it is intentional, and the Bible speaks to the situation in which a professing Christian sins:
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27)
I can't make you believe my testimony that I obey God in all things as the Bible commands and confirms, but your argument is against the Bible, not against me.
Mr. Davis,
ReplyDeleteEphisians 2:8 tells us that it is by grace that we have been saved, through faith, and this not of ourselves. I have confessed my sins to Christ and have accepted Him into my heart. But I cannot and will not deny that I still make mistakes. Sometimes I am not kind to others, or I speak disrespectfullly to my parents. This is wrong, and I know it. I ask for God's forgivness and ask for the strength to fight temptation.
Galations 2:11-13 says, "When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong...The other jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray."
Peter had received the holy spirit when Jesus appeared to the twelve. Peter was a Christian, yet Paul rebuked him to his face for doing wrong.
Matthew 18:6 also says, "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believes in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his n exck and to be drowned in teh depths of the sea."
Some translations of this verse say "those young in their faith" instead of little ones. The point is, believers were led into sin. They believed in Jesus, yet they sinned.
I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way to you, Mr. Davis, but I do disagree with you on this point. I may not be as wise as some, but I cannot deny what I judge to be true by God's word.
I will close with one final question. If it is true that holiness is attainable on this earth through Christ, then would you deem I am not a Christian? I profess a faith in Jesus Christ, and live in him, yet I know I still sin sometimes, so am I not saved?
If it is commanded that we be perfect and God gives us free will then we could still choose to disobey him and sin. Even if we could be sinless, which we can't, we would still have the ability making us imperfect un til we get to heaven. I am a Christian and I have accepted God based on faith and have been saved by grace Ephesians 2:8. I know that I have sinned since I have become a Christian. I have disobeyed my parents and have done wrong. Are you saying that I am not saved?
ReplyDeleteLightbearer, the truth of our salvation is measured by our obedience, not by our verbal profession. As the Scripture says:
ReplyDeleteBy this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. (1 John 2:3-6)
And:
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)
I will write a post soon about the Galatians passage you mentioned. It would take too long to do it here in a comment.
Regarding the Matthew passage, a little one can stumble without sinning. If someone leads a believer into doctrinal error, that doesn't mean that the believer has sinned. All sin is based on choice, not on sincere following of erroneous information.
I applaud your desire to be true to God's word, but I wonder how you handle these passages I quoted that state so clearly the sinless character of a true believer.
I would never presume to judge your state of salvation. Your kindness in this disagreement paints you in holy light, so who am I to think anything negative about you?
I believe there is absolutely no doubt that holiness is attainable for a Christian. God is able to do this miracle in our lives, and the Bible testifies to this power, but this stand of mine doesn't mean that all true Christians believe or understand this truth.
The power is available to you. As Paul said, "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16) and "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? (Romans 6:1-2)
The testimony of Scripture is overwhelming. By the power of God working within, you are able to live without sin, and I pray that you will receive this power into your life.
Miles, please read my response to Lightbearer. My response to you is pretty much the same. I would never presume to judge your state of salvation, and I wonder how you counter the testimony of the Scriptures I quoted that speak of the sinless character of believers again and again.
ReplyDeleteProof of salvation is not a matter of confession; it is a matter of obedience.
It seems obvious to me, Mr. Davis, that you I and I simply disagree. So I will respectfully withdraw from this debate. Thank you for your time.
ReplyDeleteGrace and peace to you, Lightbearer.
ReplyDeletei have to say i have never heard this from anybody but you, Mr. Davis. Im interested to see what more you post.
ReplyDeleteTyler, you're right. I am in a small minority. But I have to believe it. The evidence is very compelling.
ReplyDeleteYes, the Bible is our standard, but it doesn't really say that just because someone still struggles with sin, they are not saved, which is, in essence, what you are saying. I don't think your INTERPRETATION of the Bible is true in this case.
ReplyDeleteWe are cleansed from sin, and we will be made perfect and holy, but that is not yet. Now this is not an excuse to sin. We must strive, but the Bible says that we are being made holy. (because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy ~Hebrews 10:14) Not that we are now holy.
Philippians 1:6 says "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus "~Philippians 1:6
This shows that this is a process that is being carried out still, the PROCESS of sanctification.
There is a difference between salvation and sanctification.
It seems to me that saying that you don't sin is itself a sin: pride.
If you say that Christians never sin, you say that the only people who are Christians are people who are perfect now. Is that what you're saying? Because the Bible says that there are only two things needed for salvation, and perfection is NOT one of them. (Romans 10:9-10--That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.)
Cassie, there are several problems with your analysis. First, the Bible indeed does say that people who claim to be Christians and yet sin are not saved.
ReplyDeleteFor if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27)
Second, it's not merely my interpretation. The Bible is direct and straightforward.
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)
This doesn't require any interpretation. It's in black and white.
Third, you quoted Hebrews 10:14 from the NIV, which has it wrong. It should read, "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (NASB) or "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (KJV)
The perfection and sanctification have already occurred. The NIV is a very poor study Bible and often changes important text.
The Philippians 6 passage certainly talks about a process, but it isn't the process to stop sinning. Paul talks about the process in chapter three of the same book.
"That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:10-12)
What he is not perfect yet in is knowledge of Christ, the fellowship of sufferings, and the power of resurrection. This process has nothing to do with sin. All Christians have already stopped sinning.
It is not prideful to say we have stopped sinning. Why would it be? It's a testimony to what God has done in our lives. It glorifies Him regarding what a wonderful change He has wrought in our lives.
Actually, it's an insult to God to insist that He cannot completely cleanse us from all sin, as John claims that He does again and again in his epistle. It is an insult to God to say "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me" (Galatians 2:20) and then claim that you still sin. That is the same as saying the Jesus sins.
As Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15)
And as John wrote:
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; (1 John 2:3-4)
There isn't any wiggle room here. Christians obey. They don't sin. This truth is crystal clear.
Finally, you are correct that faith and confession are required for salvation, but when a person does these things, God regenerates the person and makes the believer perfectly holy. The believer dies to sin, as the person who wrote the text you quoted says in the same book:
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? (Romans 6:1-2)
We died to sin. We are freed from it. No one who is born of God sins.
These truths are straight from the Bible, so I have to believe them.
So are you saying that there is a difference between willful sin (as talked about in the Hebrews 6 quote you mentioned) and unintentional sin? There is a difference between active sin and thought sins... like when Jesus said if you hate a man in your heart you have killed him vs. actively shooting someone and killing them, but both are sins, and you can't differentiate between them. You are saying that all Christians are perfect, don't have sinful thoughts?
ReplyDeleteI don't think any of the translations of the Bible are inaccurate, but that all of them together help us to understand more fully the things written in them. It is not good to wholly dismiss the NIV, otherwise you would have to wholly dismiss all translations except the original Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic...
So are you saying there is no difference between salvation and sanctification?
Just trying to understand a little better what you are saying.
The Hebrews 10 passage uses the term "willfully," which means "not under compulsion" as in 1 Peter 5:2- "shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily."
ReplyDeleteHere it is translated "voluntarily." In other words, no one forced you to do the act. That would include sins of actions and sins of thought. Both are choices, and both are sins.
So I believe Christians don't have sinful thoughts. They might think about sin in an abstract way, that sin is evil and is abhored by God. But we don't have evil desires.
I didn't wholly dismiss the NIV. I said it was a poor study Bible. It takes inaccurate liberties with the language. The King James, the American Standard, and the New American Standard are much better with translation accuracy.
There is a difference between salvation and sanctification. Salvation is deliverance from the punishment that we deserved as the result of our sins. Sanctification is literally a setting apart, and can have multiple meanings.
We are set apart from the world in that we cease from sin (1 John 5:18), and that happens at the same time as salvation. We are set apart in getting to know God better and fulfilling His purpose in us. That kind of sanctification continues for the rest of our lives.