Wednesday, June 10, 2009

How Great is the Darkness!

Jesus said, "The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!" (Matthew 6:22-23)

A couple of events during the past week have brought this passage to mind. While Jesus was likely talking about the eye being the source of light and knowledge coming into a person's mind and how the gateways to the mind need to be clear and holy, it seems to me that the principle holds true for the church as well.

The gateways into the body of professing believers surely influence the way the church as a whole thinks and processes information--pastors, authors, filmmakers, and musicians write, speak, and sing about ideas and transmit their understanding of God and His word to the pew-sitters in congregations all across the world. If these eyes, these gateways of light, are clouded or blind, then those who receive their input will process skewed or erroneous information, and they will live according to faulty conclusions.

This week I was reminded of that in two very disturbing circumstances. I went to a wedding this past Saturday, and the preacher looked the groom in the eye and told him he is a sinner, and that when he sinned against his wife, he would have to repent, and when his wife, who is also a sinner, sinned against him, he needed to forgive her.

He went on to say that this sinning, repenting, and forgiving in marriage is an illustration of the gospel and how Jesus and the church function.

Wait a minute! The groom is supposed to represent Jesus, and he is a sinner? The bride is supposed to be spotless and pure, and she is a sinner? Marriage is supposed to be an illustration of a holy union, not an adulterous tryst. I wanted to stand up and ask, "What sin will he commit? Adultery? Wife beating? Child molestation? How dare you suggest such a wicked idea!"

And then they said their vows, promising fidelity, support, love, etc, all after the pastor insisted that they wouldn't keep these vows. It was sick and twisted, a slap in Jesus' face. I can't imagine how these two could speak these vows knowing that they would intentionally violate them, assuming they believed this pastor's words of darkness.

A few weeks ago I received a textbook for potential endorsement, and yesterday I had some time to look through it, a Christian worldview book for teaching children about God. Although I had some minor quibbles with the approach, the subject matter was reasonably true until I came across this line, an exhortation to Christian children:

"In the meantime, if you should happen to sin—and you will sometimes—you need to seek God’s forgiveness as soon as possible."

This is horrific. Can you imagine that this could possibly be a good way to teach children, to insist that they will sin?

Johnny, don't steal. Oh, but you will sometimes, and then you have to hurry and ask forgiveness. Don't fornicate, but you will sometimes, so be sure to ask forgiveness. Don't rape, murder, or take drugs, but since you will sometimes, be ready to ask forgiveness.

The absurdity is mind boggling. How can we avoid the accusation of madness if we command our children to do something and then tell them they won't obey our commands? How can our children look at us as anything but raving lunatics if we exhort them to holiness and then insist that they cannot achieve what we request?

And the confession for forgiveness part is also an illogical mess. What happens if they don't ask forgiveness? This is the dilemma that the anti-holiness crowd constantly runs into. On one hand, they say that 1 John 1:9 is an everyday thing to do, confess and be forgiven, but they get hung up when you ask, "What happens if a Christian doesn't confess? Are they not forgiven? Will they go to hell if they don't confess?"

Then they'll say, no they'll be fine, because all their sins have been forgiven past, present, and future. (Of course, they have no biblical proof for this faulty assertion.)

Okay, then why confess? There seems to be no need if their sins are already forgiven.

Well ... uh ... because it says to confess?

True. It does say to confess, and it says that confession brings forgiveness and complete cleansing from all unrighteousness. This is an if/then statement. If you confess, you will be forgiven. Doesn't that imply that lack of confession will mean lack of forgiveness and cleansing? If not, then why make the statement at all if forgiveness is granted no matter what? And, of course, if they're completely cleansed, I assume they'll never sin again.

And then they usually get angry or try to change the subject.

Their doctrine is ridiculous, and it's so tragic that it has become the default in church circles. Surely the eye has become a pit of blackness.

Confession in 1 John 1:9 is the confession that brings about forgiveness and salvation, and salvation brings about complete cleansing from all sin. There is no other reasonable way to interpret it.

It's frustrating and sad. The church holds on to this sinning doctrine so doggedly all the while exhorting their congregants to be holy. What a strange lot they are! Be holy, but you can't be holy. Go and sin no more, but you will sin every day. Love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, but you will never be able to do that.

This is madness. This is darkness so black, the blind are truly leading the blind into a pit. This love of sin and the comforts of false security will surely cause millions to be among the crowd who call out to Jesus, "'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23)

This is what the church today has fallen into, a completely warped view of reality, a twisted mindset that cannot even see its own clownish behavior. God help us!

(Artwork by Ed Miracle: http://www.miraclesart.com)

25 comments:

  1. It really is such an absurdity. What are the clear teachings of the scriptures? Let him steals steal less? Go forth and sin less? May it never be! It is to be cut off. We are to die to sin. I don't know how any serious student of the scriptures can insisit otherwise.

    CFA

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  2. So are you saying you no longer sin?? Are you saying you are NO longer a Sinner?? Mr. Davis, Christians ARE (not have been) sinners saved by Grace! Our focus is living for Christ Yes, but it doesn't mean we will never sin again!!

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  3. Mr. Davis, if you are a Christian, you ARE (not have been) a Sinner saved by Grace...it doesn't mean you no longer sin when you receive salvation. You are misleading and preaching a different gospel if you are saying Christians are no longer sinners.

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  4. Brenda, I am certainly preaching a gospel that differs from what the modern church preaches, but what I preach is the gospel of the Bible.

    Christians under the new covenant are never called sinners in the New Testament, that is, in context with their post conversion life. They are always called saints. So Christians WERE sinners, and now they ARE saints.

    What I teach is expressly taught in the Bible.

    Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:7-10)

    And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3-4)

    Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (1 John 4:17)

    And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:24)

    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2)

    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Romans 6:6-7)

    So, Brenda, what I am teaching is the biblical gospel. It very clearly says that Christians don't sin. We are not sinners. We are saints. And the modern church has destroyed that truth and replaced it with a horrific lie.

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  5. Again, I'm asking you...are you telling me that you have NEVER sinned again since receiving salvation????

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  6. Brenda, I apologize for not making my answer clear enough. Since I wrote that Christians don't sin, and gave the biblical proof for that statement, I thought that was a sufficient answer.

    No true Christian sins after salvation, not I nor any other Christian. So, no, I have not sinned since becoming a true Christian. And the passages I listed prove that to be a biblical fact.

    I realize that this appears to be a scandalous statement to most in the sin-saturated church of today, but this is because of the great darkness that the church has allowed to take over its pulpits and pews.

    The Bible is clear. No one who is born of God commits sin. It's in black and white, and it is unambiguous. It also says not to let anyone deceive you into thinking otherwise. Unfortunately, the modern church has allowed that deception to so overwhelm them, that they cannot see clearly to believe anything but this false sinning-Christian doctrine. In fact, they condemn and persecute those who teach the truth about biblical holiness. It is a tragedy beyond compare.

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  7. Explain to me your take on Romans 7. In your opinion, was Paul NOT a Christian??

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  8. Paul was certainly a Christian. I have another blog post about that passage here:

    http://oraclesoffire.blogspot.com/2009/03/excuses-excuses-romans-chapter-7.html

    It might help if you perused this blog. I have addressed other passages that people often use to try to prove the sinning-Christian doctrine.

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  9. Mr. Davis, I'd like to know how you respond to Romans 7: 21-25. Paul is speaking here of a current struggle--well after his Damascus Road conversion.

    At first blush, the references you cite do seem to be unambiguous, however if one considers other references to sin in the New Testament, one should be compelled to look again and study the context of such references as you made.

    Your stance begs the question: If one who claims salvation in Christ, as I do, and yet still struggles with the flesh (ie. unrighteous anger, impure thoughts, gossip, etc...), as I do, how do you respond? Are those struggles not sin? Or do those struggles somehow indicate that salvation has not truly taken place?!

    I find your understanding of scripture to be highly problematic, and even dangerous to the Christian witness. To claim to be sinless, and therefore perfect, is hypocrisy to the world who watches and sees daily the mistakes that are made. It is by grace we are saved, and it is a process to become Christlike. I do not hear love for sin being preached from the pulpit, but the recognition of a continuing struggle against it. Yes, I still confess, and ask for forgiveness when I sin as a needed step toward repentence (ie. a turning away from sin). Repentence leads to greater Christlike-ness.

    Yes, If one claims to be a Christian, they must begin to bear fruit, or risk their testimony and turn others away from the gospel of Christ. However, dying to sin is a process. Neither I, nor anyone I know would have the audacity to claim that they have ARRIVED at such perfection!
    My hat's off to you if you have done so!!

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  10. You have said that you think it is unbelievable that any Christian would ever sin..how could a Christian who loves God possibly sin?
    Do you have any children?? What is the "age of accountability" in your thinking that a child can receive salvation? Would you also say that a child can become a Christian and ever after that never sin? Never disobey their parents? Never have an unkind thought against another??
    I know my child loves me, but I do not find it unbelievable that despite his love for me, that he would ever sin!

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  11. Wendy, as I commented above, here is an explanation of the Romans 7 passage:

    http://oraclesoffire.blogspot.com/2009/03/excuses-excuses-romans-chapter-7.html

    It was not Paul's current struggle. Such an interpretation is impossible in context.

    Regarding the unambiguous passages I quoted, my interpretation is based on the context, both from the book in which it is written as well as in the entire New Testament.

    My stance doesn't beg the question. It is straightforward, as John is in his epistle:

    Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:7-10)

    And:

    We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18)

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  12. Wendy, to continue:

    You call your issues "struggles with the flesh," yet in a Christian, the flesh is crucified and removed:

    And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:24)

    And in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; (Colossians 2:11)

    I can't see how anyone can struggle with something that is dead and removed. So I'm not begging the question, that is, "How do you respond?" I deny the premise. Christians don't have a sinful flesh to struggle with.

    I can try to answer your later question, "Or do those struggles somehow indicate that salvation has not truly taken place?!" I'm not sure what the outcome of a struggle might be, but if a person actually sins, then he cannot be a true Christian, as John clearly states in his epistle.

    My understanding of Scripture is not problematic. If everyone who professed salvation would follow the truths presented in the Bible and lived the sinless lives to which they are called, there would be no hypocrisy.

    What is dangerous, and what promotes hypocrisy, is the sinning-Christian doctrine. It teaches that all Christians sin, and it even condemns those who live in holiness, calling them liars and, oddly enough, hypocrites. Who is the hypocrite, the person who lives the holy life that he proclaims, or the person who claims to be a Christian and then sins? It seems obvious that the sinning person is the true hypocrite.

    Your claim of confession and repentance is all well and good, but if you go on sinning, then what happened to repentance? It must have been a false confession and repentance, for you went back to sinning again.

    If you "struggle," how can you claim it's a struggle if the power of God's Holy Spirit is dwelling within and gives you an escape to every temptation (1 Corinthians 10:13)? Then sin would be an intentional choice made in spite of the provided escape, not the result of a lost struggle.

    Dying to sin is not a process. The Bible is clear that it has already taken place in a believer.

    What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. (Romans 6:1-7)

    Christians have died with Christ. They have died to sin. The Bible puts them both in past tense for a true believer.

    Is it audacity to testify to the life that God commands me to live? Is it audacity to give glory to God for the power to live in holiness? Of course not. We are called to bear witness to the grace and power of God and the real fruit that He has caused to spring forth.

    It seems to me that it takes a lot of audacity for a person to claim that the Holy Spirit dwells within and yet the power to live a holy life is out of reach. It takes a lot of audacity for a person to say with Paul, "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me," (Galatians 2:20) and then say he is still a sinner, thereby making Christ a sinner.

    My position is biblical, and my claim to live without sin is scandalous only in the eyes of those who cannot understand the power God gives to break the chains of sin. And it is a position that has been held in the past--Justin Martyr, John Wesley, Charles Finney, to name a few. The modern church, however, has repudiated the truth. The darkness is great, indeed.

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  13. Brenda, the reason a child of God cannot sin is because he is born of God (1 John 3:9). And Jesus says if we love Him, we will keep His commandments.

    If a child of mine intentionally disobeys, that would mean that he loves himself more than he loves me. His love for me would not be real, for it is surpassed by love for self. Real love is not surpassed by love of self.

    A child who is a true Christian would always obey his parents, assuming his parents have not told him to sin. I'm not sure at what age that can happen, but the Bible's teaching is clear. Christians don't commit sin.

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  14. Brenda, here are a few more passages of Scripture that prove the doctrine that Mr. Davis teaches:

    We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)

    No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide a way of escape, also, so that you will be able to endure it. (1 Corinithians 10:13)

    For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? (Romans 6:14-16)

    But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. (Romans 6:22)

    He is not presenting a gospel that is contrary to the Word of God. This is the truth, and it's clear in scripture, that no true Christian sins.

    You asked about Romans 7. If you read the blog post that Mr. Davis just gave you, you'll see that Paul was not talking about his walk as a Christian - he was talking about his life before coming to Christ. If you believe that he's talking about his life as a Christian, then everything he said in Romans 6 is a lie. Why would he tell us in one chapter that Christians are freed from sin and no longer slaves, then go on to admit that he himself is still a slave? May it never be!

    For many years I believed the false sinning-Christian doctrine. I took on the mantra of "I'm saved anyway, so it doesn't matter what I do, I'll still go to Heaven." Nonsense! I was decieving myself, and I was blind. But now I can say that I am free from the shackles of sin! Praise God for his Amazing Grace!

    I pray that you'll look through what we've posted here carefully, Brenda, and that the Lord will show you the truth.

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  15. So, there are 'true Christians', and then Christians who say but don't do. What happens to these people? Will they end up in heaven?

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  16. Anonymous, it's a tragic situation, but people who think they're Christians but still sin are going to face what Jesus said:

    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    Who will make it into heaven? Those who do God's will. Who will be cast out? Those who sin (work iniquity). Will their verbal confession be enough? No. Not even miracles, casting out devils, or prophesying in Jesus' name will be enough. The only difference between who gets in and who doesn't will be whether or not they obeyed God.

    True Christians obey God. False professors of faith don't obey God.

    As Jesus said just before this passage:

    Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:15-20)

    Good trees cannot produce bad fruit, yet the false prophets claim they can. In fact, they claim that good trees must produce bad fruit, for no tree, they think, can be truly good.

    So these false prophets, these blind ones leading the blind, will fill the churches with people who will be turned away from Jesus at the end. Why? Because they are teaching that sin is not only normal; they teach that those who proclaim holiness are not real Christians. They turn the gospel completely around.

    Yet, Jesus says that only those who do God's will are allowed in, and those who sin are turned away. And bad fruit exposes a bad tree for what it is.

    These false prophets are deceivers, and John warns about them:

    Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:7-10)

    It doesn't get any clearer than that.

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  17. you used to be my favorite auther.

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  18. Anonymous, comments like yours, "you used to be my favorite auther (sic)" make me very sad. I did my best to tell the truth straight from the Bible, and I have tried to shed light in the midst of darkness, then you hit me with a negative comment without any biblical defense. Is the comment supposed to change my mind? If you are right and I am wrong, shouldn't love motivate you to correct me with the Bible? I would think so.

    Unfortunately, this happens far too often. People disagree, take shots from hidden places, and refuse to debate biblically. Why? It's hard to tell when they stay in darkness. All I can guess is that they are in the state Jesus described.

    "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." (John 3:19-21)

    I certainly hope that's not the case, but it saddens me to see this kind of approach.

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  19. I agree with Mr. Davis. Brenda, just because Mr. Davis believes somting different then you do you don't need to lash out with hurtful comments. I used to beleive as you do but I studied the scriptures and saw that he was right. Please, seroiusly consider the passages Mr. Davis and others have given.

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  20. John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

    Here the scripture only speaks of believing in Jesus as removing condemnation, and guaranteeing eternal life. That belief leads to a desire to obey and to walk in His ways. We need the scriptures to guide us into learning to do that each day. I understand the following verses regarding man's rejection of the Light to be a reference to Jesus' experience when He walked the earth (John 3:19-20)

    As Paul says in 1Corinthians 13:9-12
    "For we know in part and we prophey in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

    Paul is including himself, a believer, in saying at the present he knows in part. He's confessing that he has not ARRIVED.

    Certainly there are those who invoke the name of Jesus who do not really know Him--and Christ doesn't know them either--they only use the name for their own personal gain--as in the book of Acts with the example of Simon the Sorcerer. Examples such as Simon the Sorcerer would be the proper application for your reference to Matthew 7:21-23.

    1John 1:7
    "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light,we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."

    Here, to walk is an ongoing activity. Occassionally when I walk in the literal sense, I do stumble. This spiritual walk with God is also one that I walk with imperfect flesh, and so also occassionally stumble spiritually. Also, the "blood of Jesus,his Son, purifies us from all sin" suggests an ongoing purification--Jesus' blood continues to be all that we need to stand before God innocent.


    One question: Who lashed out with a hurtful comment? It wasn't Brenda.

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  21. Wendy,

    The John 3:16-18 passage you quoted does provide exactly what we need to be saved and escape condemnation, but the following verses don't describe what happened to Jesus while He was on the earth. He clearly says that this is the condemnation that those who believe are escaping:

    And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:19-21)

    So those who do what is right are the real believers, and those who do evil are still in darkness.

    True belief in Jesus doesn't merely give you "a desire to obey and to walk in His ways" as you wrote. The desire is already in those who have been tutored by the Law, those who come to Him for salvation. If the desire wasn't there, they wouldn't come at all. Believing brings about the ability to obey. Combining ability with desire must bring about obedience at all times, because if someone doesn't obey, the inescapable conclusion is that either the desire wasn't there or the ability wasn't there. A true Christian has both, so obedience will always be the result.

    Regarding Paul in 1 Corinthians 13, he writes about not having "arrived" in category of knowledge. He doesn't say anything about still sinning. Christians stop sinning. They never stop learning--gaining knowledge and wisdom. There is a huge difference between those categories.

    Regarding those who invoke the name of Jesus who really don't know Him, Jesus said the difference between those who get in and those who don't is their obedience. Those who obey enter. Those who don't are sent away. He doesn't say that He is speaking about people like Simon only. It's wide open.

    Regarding 1 John 1:7, if you walk in the Light you will see clearly and know what God wants you to do. Sin isn't "stumbling," as in an accident; it is intentional disobedience.

    The light that we walk in is in fellowship with God, and verse 5 says there is not darkness there at all. In your view, how many times would one have to sin to prove she is in darkness? Once a day? Ten times a day? A hundred times? Any act of willful disobedience proves that darkness still exists and thereby disqualifies someone from being in the light.

    As it says, the blood of Jesus cleanses us of all sin, not some, not all but a little. All sin.

    And the entire passage is the gospel message, the description of what happens to someone who receives it. This isn't a description of our ongoing life. We respond to the truth, confess sin, and we are forgiving and cleansed of all sin.

    And, as John goes on, no one who is born of God commits sin:

    Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:7-10)

    This is how we tell believers from unbelievers, as verse 10 says. If you allow for any sin in a real believer, the test is void and useless. As verse nine says, Christians don't sin, and only no sin provides a test that can be used.

    Regarding the hurtful comment, I didn't say that. Another commenter brought that up. I suppose that person was referring to Brenda's statement - "You are misleading and preaching a different gospel if you are saying Christians are no longer sinners."

    That could be interpreted as hurtful. It is certainly an untrue accusation, so "hurtful" could describe it accurately.

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  22. One more time...

    Regarding 1 Corinthians 13 and gaining knowledge and wisdom....

    Why would someone who is sinless need to gain knowledge or wisdom? They don't sin--what's to know at that point? You might as well call yourself Jesus at that point!

    We are continually being purified. Jesus' blood covers us, and we stand innocent before a holy God. Out of reverence and awe of Him we seek to walk worthy of our calling--its ongoing.

    How much sin is o.k.? You ask: None, therefore Christ took the penalty for our sin. We strive to have a worthy walk. God doesn't just want to save us he wants to sanctify us. A child of God is a child of God no matter how immature, we mature as we are being purified.

    I know your view of the epistles--I simply disagree. There would be no need for the instruction of those letters if all the "true" Christians did not ever sin. Paul repeatedly refers to the addressees as believers. God gave us His Word that we would benefit from it even today. Those who read it seek to bear more fruit, have a closer walk. People whose hearts are turned away from God wouldn't even open the Book!

    Your theology does seem misguided and the influence you weild as an author even makes it alarming. I agree--misleading. I really do not accept that you are forming your stand based on all the teaching of the New Testament.

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  23. We can be without sin and still need to learn. Even Jesus learned:

    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Hebrews 5:8-9)

    Perfection in obedience is the default for true Christians. Perfection in knowledge and wisdom goes on and on. Sinlessness is simply obeying God at every choice juncture. Gaining more knowledge and wisdom goes beyond that. I find it alarming that some people can't see the difference.

    We are not "continually being purified," and the blood of Jesus does not "cover" us. The Bible says we have already been perfected by the one-time sacrifice:

    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14)

    It says that we are cleansed, not covered:

    If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

    The flesh has been crucified:

    Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24)

    The flesh has been removed:

    And in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ. (Colossians 2:11)

    These have already happened. They are not ongoing. Your understanding of Jesus' work in believers is wrong.

    Regarding your answer to your question "How much sin is ok?" (I didn't ask that question), you make your answer based on your incorrect view of Jesus' work. Purification is complete at conversion. I asked how many sins would cause someone not to be walking in the light. You can't allow any or else there is no true demarcation. In God, there is no darkness at all, and being in fellowship with Him demands the same.

    In any case, if you strive to have a worthy walk, you will. Since God grants the power, our striving will result in obedience. If you sin, that proves that the striving is absent.

    It's true that a child of God is a child of God, but John says that a child of God commits no sin, as I have quoted before. So someone who sins cannot be a true child of God.

    (Continued in next comment)

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  24. The instructions in the letters are instructions to the churches. The writers realize that some are not true believers, and their admonishments include statements that disobedience will result in damnation. True Christians in those churches won't disobey. I showed examples in an earlier blog post: (http://oraclesoffire.blogspot.com/2009/05/misunderstandings-in-epistles.html) and proved that Paul and others do greet the churches as believers, but they also qualify that within the letters, showing their realization that not everyone in the churches truly believes, and their disobedience would prove their lack of true, saving faith.

    My theology isn't misguided, and my position as an author and the influence thereof have allowed me to shine the light in the midst of a sin-sick church that loves the darkness. I am thankful that God has granted me this opportunity to tell the truth.

    What is alarming is how people who claim to love Jesus continue to defend their sin and criticize those who have the "audacity" to bear witness to His power in their lives. How dare I obey Jesus and say so! How dare I claim that God is powerful enough to cleanse His followers from all sin! How dare I give testimony to exactly what the Bible says! How dare I expose hypocrisy in the church!

    I am certainly forming my stand based on all the teaching of the Bible, as I have been demonstrating with each post and comment.

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  25. Strong resistance seems to be the common reaction to this doctrine. Perhaps because it goes against much that is heard from the pulpit these days, on this topic. People are taught they are born in sin, that they have a "sinful nature" that will always be present in them and will always cause them to sin, and that sanctification is a process, ever continuing until the Lord's return. (I freely admit that sanctification is a process, in that we are always growing. But perfect obedience is the normal position.)

    So to hear that it is possible for believers to do as God has commanded them to do is met with suspicion, or even hostility.

    Although I was on this side for most of my life, when I look back, the objections make little sense. God commands us to live a holy life (1 Peter 1:14-16). He has promised us a way of escape from temptation (1 Corinthians 10:13), and we have the Holy Spirit in us (1 Corinthians 6:19).

    God is greater than the flesh, which has been crucified anyway (Galatians 5:24). So what are we to conclude? What excuse for sin remains? None. But sin in a believer is not something to fret over, since those who are born of God do not sin (1 John 3:9), and those who love Him keep His commandments (John 14:15).

    It is not misleading. It is not dangerous. It is freedom. It is the truth.

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