Sunday, March 8, 2009

Excuses, excuses - Romans Chapter 7

When people defend the concept of sin in a Christian, the reasons they give for continued sin after salvation are often lame excuses. Strangely enough, words defending sin come from the lips of those who claim to love God. They say they try to obey, yet they continue to rebel against Him in some manner. This, of course, is unreasonable.

Does a reasonable person rebel against a beloved master? Does a servant of the Almighty lack the power to obey? Of course not. So the words a sinner uses to excuse his rebellious behavior are really a weak cover up. They either misrepresent God and His word or shift blame in a disingenuous manner.

One of the most common excuses for sin comes from Romans chapter seven. Many interpret Paul’s story of struggle with sin as one that occurred while he was a Christian, and, or so the excuse claims, if Paul struggled with sin, somehow that means that all Christians struggle, thereby creating an excuse that legitimizes sinful behavior in the individual.

There are many problems with both the interpretation of the passage and the application. It seems strange to me that anyone would point to another person’s sin and use it as an excuse for his own. For example, if a pastor of a church molests a child, would a layman in the church dare do the same and then claim the pastor’s example as an excuse? Would he dare say, “The pastor molested a child. So it stands to reason that I would, too”?

I assume everyone would agree that such an appeal is absurd. It would be a moral outrage. Yet, this is what people are doing when they compare themselves to Paul and his struggle. “Paul struggled with sin, so it stands to reason that I would, too.” This is exactly the same. There is no difference. It doesn’t matter if the sin is molestation, lying, lust, theft, or an unkind word. In every case, the idea of pointing out another person’s sin in order to exonerate oneself is a moral outrage.

But it’s even worse than that. In Paul’s case, he wasn’t even describing his life as a regenerate man. He was describing his life under the law, before Jesus stopped him in his murderous march toward Damascus, so an appeal to this passage as an excuse for sin is even more unreasonable.
So that readers won’t have to look up the passage, I will be quoting sections here.

Romans 7:1-13
1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man. 4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God. 5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9And I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me. 12So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Here is an overview of the chapter and its context: The first verse is meant to be a further explanation of truths declared in the previous chapter. Paul starts an illustration section in verse 1 of chapter 7 when he says, “Or do you not know brethren.” He then provides an illustration of bondage to law in verses 2 and 3. Following that, he brings the examples down to earth by relating the doctrine to the readers in verses 4 through 6. Paul goes on to paint a picture of bondage under the law from verses 7 through 25 and then describes what freedom from the law means in chapter 8, verses 1 through 11.

Now for the details. The first six verses of chapter 7 explain how a person escapes from the bondage of law; he must die to it. An example is given in verses 2-3, and Paul shows how the concept works for Christians in verses 4-6. Note the past tense in verse 5, "For while we were in the flesh.” This will become important later.

Paul has taken great pains to this point to make these statements clear:

1. Christians have died with Christ. (6:3)

2. By doing this they have died to the Law. (7:6)

3. By this they have also been freed from sin. (6:18, 22)

4. They have also become slaves of God and of obedience to God. (6:10-11, 13, 16, 22)

Verse 7 of chapter 7 starts an interesting view into Paul's life. He apparently is not satisfied with a pure, step by step theological analysis, but also wants to put meat on the discussion by placing his past life in the open as an example.

There are two deaths to describe in his illustration. First is the spiritual death to God that comes from sinning, illustrating Romans 6:23, "for the wages of sin is death." The second is the death to the law and the coincident rebirth to God, thereby demonstrating Romans 7:6, “But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound.” Both kinds of death are included to make the example complete.

Verses 7-13 of chapter 7 clearly speak about a past experience. The past tenses throughout show this, and the wording reveals that the first death, the death to God, occurred before Paul became a Christian. Verse 9 indicates that this death occurred when “the commandment came,” which is probably a reference to Paul's understanding of God's expectations of him, whether through the Old Testament written law or through revelations of conscience.

Paul, being a zealous Pharisee, certainly knew God’s law long before his conversion, so this coming of the commandment must also have occurred before his conversion. It will be important to remember that this passage (7:7-13) is about a past experience as I examine the next passage.

Romans 7:14-25
14For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

In this section Paul switches from past to present tense in his illustration, without otherwise changing the time of the events. Verse 14 is certainly connected with the previous passage, because the word "for" is used as an explanatory introduction. There is also no change in the pronoun, "I." The person described in verses 7-13 is certainly a man under the law, so since the pronoun does not change, we should assume that this is the same man in verse 14, unless a change is given explicitly. But is this the same man under the same condition as in the preceding verses (7:7-13), enslaved to the law and to sin? Apparently so, because the verse says that he is both of flesh and sold under sin.

Remember that Paul has taken great pains to say that a Christian is freed from sin (6:18, 22), and now he says that he is sold into bondage to sin, or, more literally, sold under sin. It is also clear in verse 9 of chapter 8 that Christians are not in the flesh, “However you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.” Galatians 5:24 says, “Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.”

Christians are not "in the flesh" and have "crucified the flesh," but in Romans 7 Paul is saying that he is "of flesh.” This is certainly not a description of one who is a Christian. These two ideas, being of flesh and in slavery to sin, contradict the clear lessons that Paul has taught in this section of Scripture. Remember verse 5 of chapter 7 where Paul says "while we were in the flesh"? The illustration at hand describes this “in the flesh” time, but the obvious implication is that Christians are not in the flesh.

If Paul is not describing his present experience, then why does he use the present tense? With Greek, a tense does not necessarily indicate the time of an action; it is used to indicate the type of action that is being described. The time of an action may also be indicated (depending on the mood of the verb) but even then only the context will reveal it. When this passage is considered with its context, making the assumption that this is the present condition of Paul is at best, very confusing and at worst, impossible.

Using the present tense in an illustrative way (the "historical" present), even when reflecting on a past event or series of events, is not unusual. Paul uses much of chapter 7 to illustrate the truths explained in the previous chapters, especially the truths in chapter 6 in which the death of the old self is taught. To illustrate the death of this self Paul explains, starting in verse 1 of chapter 7, how bondage to the law requires death for release. His explanation includes an illustration in verses 2 and 3. Notice that the illustration is about a person's relationship to the Law and that it uses present tense verbs. It is followed in verse 4 by a "therefore" statement relating the readers to that illustration, that they have died to the Law in order to be joined to Christ. Paul follows with another teaching section from verse 7 to verse 13 explaining how people become bound by the Law and sin in the first place.

In order to better explain this teaching section, Paul again gives an illustration, and again it is about a person's relationship to the Law using the present tense. Paul's illustration technique is consistent, and he follows it up again with another "therefore" statement in chapter 8 verse 1 comparing the readers' position to that of the illustrated individual.

I’ll try to break this down in an orderly way:

We have two teaching sections that begin with “What shall we say then?”
Romans 6:1-23 is one of those teaching sections: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”
Christians are dead to sin, so they no longer sin, and the remainder of the chapter talks about that in detail. Then, Paul provides a present tense illustration in chapter 7:1-3 where he explains how death to the law brings about freedom from the law. Then, in chapter 7:4-6, Paul makes a comparison to his readers, “Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ.”

In a similar manner, Paul starts another teaching sections in 7:7-13, using identical beginning words, “What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law.” The teaching section goes through verse 13. Then, as he did in verses 1-3, he gives a present tense illustration in verses 14-25, followed by a comparison to his readers that begins with a “therefore.”

“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."

It should be clear that Paul is being consistent in his explanatory and illustrative way of teaching. He uses the present tense in both illustrations in order to describe truth about the law and its bondage. He is not making statements about his current life.

The present tense argument is truly weak. It cannot overpower the obvious contradictions between the condition of the man in the chapter 7 segment and the explicit descriptions of a Christian in the rest of the book, especially when a clear reason is given for the use of the present tense to make an illustration.

After telling about how he died to God spiritually, Paul uses the present tense to describe his ongoing sinful condition which occurred in the past, and then, in verses 24-25, he magnifies the awesomeness of the salvation that is in Christ. Finally, in Romans 8:1, Paul makes it clear that he is reverting back to the real present (not historical present) rather than the Greek "present" of the illustration when he writes; "There is therefore now no condemnation ... ". The "now" indicates that there is no condemnation for those who are free from the condition that he has just described. The "now" is in opposition to the time being illustrated immediately before the verse. If the chapter seven passage was really the present time and his present condition, then the “now” wouldn’t make any sense.

The present tense argument fails to prove that this is Paul’s condition as a believer. It is not possible for a person to be both enslaved to sin and not enslaved to sin at the same time. The person in the passage is enslaved to sin, and a Christian is not enslaved to sin. It is not possible for a person to be both in or of the flesh and not in or of the flesh. The person in the passage is of flesh, and a Christian is not in the flesh and has crucified the flesh.

Perhaps the most obvious contradiction between the person of this passage and the condition of a Christian occurs between 7:23 and 8:2. In 7:23, Paul is made “a prisoner of the law of sin,” and in 8:2, Paul says that those who are in Christ Jesus have been set "free from the law of sin and of death." Is a Christian a prisoner of the law of sin? The second verse says that he is not. Paul says that he is such a prisoner in chapter 7. A Christian cannot be both a prisoner of sin and not a prisoner at the same time, so Paul is not referring to a believer in the chapter 7 passage.

Again, the present tense argument is not strong enough to overpower the obvious contradictions between the condition of the man in chapter 7 and the explicit descriptions of a Christian in the rest of the section.

Therefore, this section of Romans chapter seven describes a man under the Law, before he becomes a Christian. Any professing Christian who uses this to excuse his own sin or somehow find a biblical description of sin in a Christian does so erroneously. The man with whom he is comparing himself is not a Christian. So those who see such parallels in their own lives are really finding evidence that they, themselves, are also unbelievers who need to cry out with Paul in his unregenerate state, “Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?” and then find the power of God to be set free from sin.

This explanation of Romans 7 is sufficient to prove that Paul is not writing about a Christian’s struggle with sin. It is about the struggle an unregenerate man who is under the law. It’s true that many unregenerate men have no such struggle. They don’t agree with the law that it is good. Yet, some unregenerate men do agree with the law, and Paul was one of them. This kind of unregenerate man is the topic of the passage.

My main point is that every appeal to Scripture that tries to “explain” sin in an individual professing Christian is nothing but an excuse. A person who loves Jesus will never sin. Christians have the desire and the power to obey, and that combination can never fail to bring about the desired results—obedience to God every minute of every day.

More on the fallacy of the appeal to the "present tense" argument:

Those who insist that the use of the present tense must mean Paul is relating his present experience don't seem to realize that their assumption is self defeating.

For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. (Romans 7:15)

If this is Paul's present experience, then he does not understand what he is doing at the present time. What is he doing? Writing this verse. He does not even understand what he is writing, so he would be doing something incoherent--writing something that doesn't make any sense. Also, writing this verse isn't what he would like to do. In fact, he hates writing it. This is an absurdity.

But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. (Romans 7:16-17)

If this is Paul's present experience, then his indwelling sin writing this Scripture passage.

So Paul not only doesn't understand what he is writing, his indwelling sin is actually writing it. If this is true, then how could we trust this passage? It is incoherent and is written by sin.

But those who claim this is Paul's present experience would also claim that they don't think the present tense refers to what Paul is doing at the exact moment of writing the passage. Paul is talking about recent events in his life.

If this is true, then Paul is talking about past events. Recent past is still past. Therefore, Paul is using historical present, not actual present.

Since an authoritative and coherent teaching must be historical present, then an appeal to the present tense to prove that this is Paul's present experience is destroyed.

15 comments:

  1. Mr. Davis,
    Thanks for the explanation but I still find it unsatisfactory. Perhaps you did address it and I just missed it but I didn't see a specific address of Romans 7:25 which I believe is perhaps the strongest part of the passage.

    25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

    If, as you say, Paul is describing himself as an unbeliever why does he say he is serving God? But if he is describing himself as a Christian why does he say he is still serving the law of sin?

    It would seem to me that this verse alone is proof that there is indeed that contradiction, which you deny, in Christians. That while trusting in Christ they still have lapses of falling into sin.

    Certainly we mustn't use others' sin to excuse our own. I don't use passages like this as an excuse but rather as an explanation of how I see the world. I have never met a person who didn't sin. I would love to meet you and others who you believe never sin.

    Do you mean to tell me that since you became a Christian (however many years ago) you have never lusted at after any woman you have seen besides your wife? I'm not trying to become too personal or prying but as I and others have said it seems rather unbelievable that you or any other person never sinned.

    Would you say that you have never worried about anything since you have become a Christian? Jesus tells us all worry is sin.

    Do you mean to tell me that you have kept the Sabbath perfectly everyday since you were a Christian? Worshiping God and keeping your mind focused on Him the whole day? Isaiah 58:13-14 also gives a description of what your Lord's Day should look like. Would you be so bold as to say that it describes your every Lord's Day since you became a Christian?

    I would ask you this, what about a 'new believer' who hasn't even read the whole Bible and doesn't know lust is a sin and so indulges in it? Is he a Christian? If not can one be a Christian if he does not know the whole law of God? Because if one does not know the whole law he may break it; or do you believe that supernaturally even without his knowledge of what's wrong he is kept from doing it.

    For instance the thief on the cross next to Jesus simply repented of his sins and asked Jesus to remember him. He certainly didn't know all that was required by the law, but Jesus told him he would be in paradise with Him. Do you mean to say that if that man had not died on the cross he would never have committed a sin for the rest of his life? I realize this is hypothetical but I am curious what you think about it.

    As a follow up on my thoughts that you are redefining sin let me quote some of the Westminster Larger Catechism and ask if you agree with some of these answers? I'll just give the third commandment as an example. I don't have room to provide the proof texts but you can either look it up online or ask and I can include them.

    Q. 112. What is required in the third commandment?
    A. The third commandment requires, That the name of God, his titles, attributes, ordinances, the word, sacraments, prayer, oaths, vows, lots, his works, and whatsoever else there is whereby he makes himself known, be holily and reverently used in thought, meditation, word, and writing; by an holy profession, and answerable conversation, to the glory of God, and the good of ourselves, and others.

    Q. 133. What are the sins forbidden in the third commandment?
    A. The sins forbidden in the third commandment are, the not using of God's name as is required; and the abuse of it in an ignorant, vain, irreverent, profane, superstitious, or wicked mentioning or otherwise using his titles, attributes, ordinances, or works, by blasphemy, perjury; all sinful cursings, oaths, vows, and lots; violating of our oaths and vows, if lawful; and fulfilling them if of things unlawful; murmuring and quarrelling at, curious prying into, and misapplying God's decrees and providences; misinterpreting, misapplying, or any way perverting the word, or any part of it, to profane jests, curious or unprofitable questions, vain janglings, or the maintaining of false doctrines; abusing it, the creatures or any thing contained under the name of God, to charms, or sinful lusts and practices; the maligning, scorning, reviling, or any wise opposing of God's truth, grace, and ways; making profession of religion in hypocrisy, or for sinister ends; being ashamed of it, or a shame to it, by unconformable, unwise, unfruitful, and offensive walking or backsliding from it.

    Now, do you mean to tell me that you have kept all of these perfectly since you became a Christian? This is why I have never met anyone who never sinned; I have never met anyone who believes they have kept all of this. …And this is just the third commandment! Listing all the the others would take up far too much room.

    It's been good discussing with you so far.

    Isaiah English

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  2. Isaiah, I didn't specifically address verse 25, because it reflects the rest of the section. Paul describes himself as serving the law of sin. Since Christians are set free from the law of sin (8:2), he could not possibly be describing the Christian experience. And, as a Pharisee, he certainly served the law of God with his mind.

    Therefore, this verse describes a person under the law, someone who loves the law with his mind but is enslaved to sin. A person under grace, that is, a true Christian, is set from from the law of sin, as Romans 8:2 makes clear.

    Since I have become a Christian, I have never lusted for a woman. And I haven't worried since becoming a Christian. I can't understand why that's unbelievable. This is the biblical description of a Christian.

    We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)

    What I find unbelievable is that anyone who loves Jesus would ever sin. As He said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." (John 14:15) And it's clear that those who claim to be Christians must not be if they sin.

    And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3-4)

    The Bible is clear about the condition of a true believer, so what we should find unbelievable is that any professing Christian would ever sin.

    Regarding a new believer, if he is a true believer, he will not sin for the rest of his life. The Bible says so, as I have already shown. This would also have been true of the thief on the cross. Regarding a new believer's knowledge, he would obey according to all he knows to do, and I have already demonstrated from the Scriptures what the definition of sin is.

    Regarding the Sabbath, I always keep it holy, though I'm not sure my definition of keeping it holy would match yours. And I always obey the ten commandments, including the third commandment. I do not subscribe to the Westminster Catechism. I think they are wrong about many things. So I'm not going to fully confirm or deny that I do according to all their explanation of the commandment. They add a lot of words and definitions that aren't in the commandment, and I don't trust them to do so accurately. Still, I am confident that I adhere to most, perhaps even all of their explanation, depending on how each of their terms is defined.

    Again, I don't see why this is unbelievable. Why would I ever want to disobey? It doesn't make sense. What is unbelievable is that any Christian would ever sin.

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  3. Mr. Davis,

    It appears as though we cannot come to an agreement from our current positions. We both hold presuppositions by which we interpret the different texts. I come from the belief that though they don't wish to Christians aren't perfect and so still sin even though on the one hand they don't want to. So when I read passages that call us to sin no more I see them as things to strive for but knowing I cannot attain sinless perfection in this life.

    You on the other hand come to passages like Romans 7:25 with the mindset that Christians don't sin so Paul can't be talking about a Christian. Obviously even this seemingly clear passage can interpreted in such radically different ways by people with different mindsets.

    I would consider myself blameless and I'm sure those who know me would consider me so as well, but that doesn't mean I don't even sin. Blamelessness is when one is not known for outward patterns of sin. But I still fall into sins of pride, lust, and other things. Certainly I want to serve the Lord and many times don't know how in the world I could ever do such things but I still find myself doing them.

    I have enjoyed our discussion but it seems we have finally come to a point where we are no longer compromising to the other but have reached the point where our two positions are at odds. It was nice discussing with you though. ; )

    Isaiah English

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  4. Isaiah, we disagree on this as well. If my position on Romans 7 is one that has come from a presupposition (and I don't agree that it does), it would be a biblically based presupposition. I believe Christians don't sin because the Bible emphatically states that fact.

    We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)

    There are other passages that say the same.

    And Christians cannot say, as you assert, that they don't want to sin and yet still do. That contradicts another extremely clear passage that there is no temptation that overpowers us (1 Corinthians 10:13). If we want to obey, we will obey.

    Regarding Romans 7:25, it is not a presupposed mindset that makes me believe that Paul is talking about a non-Christian; it is the passage itself. Paul says that Christians are set free from the law of sin (8:2), while the verse 25 man is a slave to the law of sin. He cannot possibly be describing a Christian.

    I have also enjoyed our discussion. You have been considerate and reasonable in your disagreement. Yet, I don't agree that we are at an impasse. As you might expect, I think your reasoning has come up short.

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  5. Ok, so I still do not agree with you that Christians do not sin, but let's suppose you were right: you haven't really provided a solution to the problem as you see it. In other words, how, in your view, does one become saved? (The Bible says there are only two things you need to do to be saved believe in Jesus and confess said belief aloud see Romans 10:9-10) But what do you say...or more to the point? How does one stop sinning?
    Are you saying, that once someone really does this believing and confessing, they are automatically sinless and will no longer fall into sin or temptation? (If so why do I and others still sin) Or are you saying that you can't really know you are saved until you get to the end of your life and look back on it and see you haven't sinned since you were supposedly saved? How can you know unless you have lived your whole life without sinning that you will live your whole life without sinning? (In which case no one can be sure he is saved this side of Heaven.)
    Do you say that if a person is saved and later sins, they lose their salvation? Or were they never really saved, according to you, in the first place? How does one regain their salvation once they've sinned and lost it? How many times can you be saved? Or do you believe they are only saved once and if they are truly saved they never sin again...but then how can you know they are saved until the end of their lives?
    To simplify: How does one stop sinning in your view? and How does one become saved in your view?


    Also... are you putting this in man's hand or God's? Meaning the supposed power to stop sinning forever this side of Heaven...do you say it comes from man or from God? And if you say it comes from God, how come those who sincerely pray for salvation and believe and confess are still sinning? And you say it comes from man how does that not take power out of God's hands and give man too much credit....in other words, deny God's sovereignty?

    Thanks for answering,
    Cassie

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  6. Cassie, I haven't focused on any solution, because the solution is already clear in the Bible. As you stated, to confess and believe is all that is necessary. The problem is that many who think they believe give only lip service to faith. They will be disappointed when they reach heaven's gates, as Jesus said:

    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:22-23)

    These professed faith with their lips, yet they still sinned, so Jesus sent them away. Only those who do the will of the Father will enter, not those who sin.

    This is in context with Jesus saying, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit" and "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

    Therefore, Jesus made it very clear that it is obedience to God that will be the deciding factor, because true faith results in obedience.

    So, to answer your question, to stop sinning you merely need to have faith in God and obey by His power. There is nothing stopping a true believer from complete obedience. Anyone who cannot do this is a slave of sin, and no slave of sin is truly saved.

    I cannot answer why you or others still sin. It seems so strange to me. Why would anyone who loves the Lord still sin? As Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." I can only conclude that you still sin because you want to sin. There seems to be no other possible reason.

    Regarding waiting until the end of my life, I see how reasonable that question is, yet, that need not be the conclusion. I don't sin now, and I don't ever wish to sin, so I conclude that I am saved. That seems reasonable to me. It follows the Scripture, "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." (1 John 2:3). Since I keep his commandments, I know that I know Him.

    I think a person who claims to be saved and yet sins, was likely never saved, so I cannot answer the other questions about regaining salvation.

    The ability to obey has always been and will always be from God, whether saved or unsaved. We couldn't even breathe if not for God.

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  7. I love your books and all, but for some reason, when I read this, I feel a check in my spirit. I know dozens of Christians, including both of my parents, and while we don't make a habit of sin (which is more of the concept of "sin" itself, habitual, that is), we do still continue to sin every now and then. It seems arrogant to me to claim to be sinless, because as long as we dwell on this earth we have to deal with our flesh. We are saved but until we die we are not given a new body and therefore are still prone to falling to temptation. Otherwise, why would Satan waste his time tempting Christians if there was absolutely no chance that they might fall? We all have weaknesses due to our humanity and to claim otherwise would be pride, which would be sin. And if you claim you have weaknesses but never fall, then how are they truly weaknesses if you can stand up to them all the time in the same way as other aspects of your life?

    And as for "A good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit," that tells me that a Christian will not sin HABITUALLY, which would mean they are a slave to sin. But even good trees produce bad fruits occasionally, though they certainly do not always bring forth bad fruit.

    If your interpretation is truly correct, then it seems as if you will be the only person in Heaven when this world comes to an end, because I have never met anyone who does not sin. I know so many people that God has used in wondrous ways to bring others to himself, and there is no doubt in my mind that they are true followers of Christ, but even they sin sometimes. Again, not habitually, but it happens.

    I apologize if any of that came off harshly, but I cannot fully comprehend this direction you are coming from.

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  8. Nathan, thank you for your comment and your concern. Obviously we disagree, and I will take some time to continue to defend my position, but I hope our ongoing disagreement doesn't cause division between us. Many people don't agree with me, but I don't love them any less for that. I trust that this grace goes both ways.

    I don't agree that it is arrogant to say I am sinless. I am simply agreeing with what the Scripture so clearly states:

    We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)

    Is it arrogant to agree with the Bible? I don't think so. Would it have been arrogant of Jesus to claim to be without sin? Of course not. He also had a body of flesh, and the Bible says that we are of the same spirit and mind.

    Regarding the flesh, the sinful part is dead in a Christian, as the Bible says:

    Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24)

    And it is has been removed:

    And in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ (Colossians 2:11)

    You wrote, "We are saved but until we die we are not given a new body and therefore are still prone to falling to temptation."

    The Bible doesn't say we are still prone to falling to temptation. In fact it says that we overwhelmingly conquer (Romans 8:37) and that there is escape from every temptation (1 Corinthians 10:13)

    You wrote, "why would Satan waste his time tempting Christians if there was absolutely no chance that they might fall?"

    I can't answer for Satan's wrongdoing, but I can ask the same question regarding Jesus. Why would Satan waste his time tempting Jesus? Since Jesus was tempted and never sinned, I don't see why I would not be tempted as well. So, you see, the fact that Satan tempts in no way proves that the one being tempted ever sins.

    You wrote, "We all have weaknesses due to our humanity and to claim otherwise would be pride, which would be sin."

    That is not true at all. It is not pride to claim a great work God has done in me. In fact, it would be a sin to claim to sin when I actually don't. It would be a lie. Again, would it have been prideful for Jesus to claim not to sin? Of course not, and since we are to be imitators of Christ, it would not be pride for us either.

    You wrote, "And if you claim you have weaknesses but never fall, then how are they truly weaknesses if you can stand up to them all the time in the same way as other aspects of your life?"

    God's power working through me enables me to overcome all temptation, as the Bible clearly says in 1 Corinthians 10:13.

    You wrote, "And as for "A good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit," that tells me that a Christian will not sin HABITUALLY, which would mean they are a slave to sin. But even good trees produce bad fruits occasionally, though they certainly do not always bring forth bad fruit."

    The passage says nothing about "habitually." Jesus said that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and the lesson was regarding people, not actual trees. The point was that if you see bad fruit on a tree, it isn't a good tree. How many bad fruit would be allowed to exist before it is considered bad? Any answer but zero would be arbitrary, and any other answer would be based on a person's own biases. It has to be zero, or the passage is worthless as a teaching tool.

    You wrote, "If your interpretation is truly correct, then it seems as if you will be the only person in Heaven when this world comes to an end, because I have never met anyone who does not sin."

    That's not true at all. Just because you haven't met them doesn't mean they don't exist. I know many people who don't sin.

    You wrote, "I know so many people that God has used in wondrous ways to bring others to himself, and there is no doubt in my mind that they are true followers of Christ, but even they sin sometimes. Again, not habitually, but it happens."

    First, what is your definition of habitually? It seems to me that one sin a day is a habit, even one sin a week. Someone might say one sin a minute or one a second. Where do you draw the line?

    The answer is that you can't draw any line. The word habitually isn't in any of the verses that claim that Christians don't sin. Once you add the non-existent word "habitually," the passage becomes worthless, because there is no standard. Everyone would have a different idea of what it means, and it couldn't be used as a measure for anything.

    The fact is that those who sin at all cannot be assured of salvation, as the Bible says,

    And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; (1 John 2:3-4)

    This is the Word of God. Those who sin are not saved. And the "habitual" argument doesn't work. As Jesus said, " “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." (John 8:34), and no Christian is a slave of sin. (Romans 8:2)

    I know that you hold to an opinion that is more popular than mine, and you have a host of pastors and teachers who will stand with you and agree with you. I stand in a minority with few human supporters. Yet, I am confident that the Word of God stands with me, so I have to hold to that position and teach it. I cannot violate my conscience. Otherwise, I will truly be in sin.

    I hope you understand, and I hope our disagreement will not injure the brotherly love between us.

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  9. I received another comment about this topic, but it was too rude and insulting to publish. It's a shame that some people cannot debate a topic without resorting to insults. Such a tactic proves that this person has nothing to base his arguments upon. I'm not going to publish comments that lack civility and love.

    The question was about verse 20 where Paul writes, "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." According to this person, the "no more" (or "no longer" in some versions) indicates that Paul was under the law and is now not.

    The context proves otherwise. It clearly says that Paul was at one time not under sin:

    For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. (Romans 7:9-11)

    The "no more" indicates a change from not being under the law and sin to being under the law and sin. It's as plain as day.

    This commenter also rudely said that the epistles are filled with correcting people they called saints. Yes, of course, they addressed the church as saints, but in their admonishments they indicated that sinning proves them not to be saints or heading for heaven.

    One clear example is in Ephesians. He calls them saints in verse one and later writes:

    But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Ephesians 5:3-5)

    Obviously those who don't obey God aren't going to heaven, whether they are referred to as saints or not.

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  10. Servant of Jehova Most HighMay 26, 2009 at 10:14 AM

    I posted last night at 3 in the morning, and was feeling rather short. I hope you'll forgive that bit of anger; sin still has hold over some parts of my life, but God's helping me through it.

    As for your explanation for the verse, your description of it 'obviously' saying that it is a transition from being not under the law and sin to being under the law and sin. On the contrary, very few people that have ever read this passage take it that way, instead taking it at exactly what it has always seemed to say, that Paul continues to sin because of his sin nature, even though redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

    The verses from Ephesians are all well and good, but they are a question of testimony, rather than perfection. A Christian is to be holy, separated for God. Although they are not perfect, they should be very distinct from the world in that they are not living continually in sin. This is quite visible in the world today; new converts being reformed from alcohol and drugs and what have you, and people shaking their heads and calling them Jesus freaks.

    You are basically here trying to counter the whole book of first Corinthians with three verses from Ephesians. I urge you to read it. I believe I also mentioned the letter to Thyatira in Revalation chapter 2, where it clearly says that Jesus' servants commited fornication because of the woman Jezebel that they allowed in their midst. Please, read Revelation 2:18-29. Read the entire second chapter of Revelation! Almost all of the churches are cited for having sin in their midst, yet they are identified as saints.

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  11. Servant, thank you for your comment.

    You say that very few people have read the "no longer" verse the way I have. I'm not sure what your definition of "very few" is, but I know of quite a number who agree with me, including my Calvinist Greek professor from Reformed Theological Seminary.

    In any case, it isn't the numbers that matter; it's reasonable exegesis. My interpretation is obvious for the simple reason that when you look at "no longer," it is reasonable to seek previous verses to see what he is talking about. Contrary to your assumption that your interpretation is "exactly what it has always seemed to say," it has always said that he is referring to his past as one who was alive apart from the law and not yet under the law. Then the commandment came (verse 9) and sin became alive. The following verses, therefore, describe life under the law and the bondage to sin. There is nothing there about passing out from the law's influence and sin's bondage until 8:2 where he describes the freedom from sin that all Christians have, the exact opposite of his imprisonment in verse 23 of chapter seven.

    So I hold fast to the fact that my interpretation is obvious. It's there in black and white.

    Regarding Ephesians, you write well about your assumptions concerning Christians not being "continually" in sin, but none of what you say is in the text. "Christians don't sin" is flatly stated in 1 John, and attempts to water that down by adding words that aren't there has become a hallmark of the weakened and corrupt church of today.

    Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:7-10)

    Regarding trying to the whole book of 1 Corinthians with my Ephesians quote, you stated in your initial comment that I should read the epistles (as if I hadn't already). I gave an example from the epistles, one that shows that your assumptions are invalid. It wouldn't be efficient to do a survey of all the epistles in a blog comment. I have, however, created a new blog post where I show that the church members in 1 Corinthians who are still in sin are not true believers.

    Regarding the messages to the churches in Revelations, I have read them many times. Jesus tells the church that the fornicators will receive the same punishment as Jezebel herself and will reward them according to their works. He makes it clear that those who don't approve of Jezebel and her lovers will be the overcomers who receive the rewards of the true saints. This pattern is demonstrated throughout these messages to the churches.

    For example, at the beginning of the chapter:

    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Obviously, those in the church who don't overcome will not eat from the tree of life. They aren't part of the saved group within the church.

    And another example: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (3:5)

    As in the other example, those who don't obey the warnings will be blotted out of the book of life. They are not saved.

    So your claim that all the members of all these churches are saints is not correct. The disobedient ones are not truly saved.

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  12. "Servant" I deleted your latest comment, because you again resorted to ad hominem. If you don't understand the difference between civil, logical debate and sophistry, please don't bother to post again.

    I will correct one claim you made about the Greek tense. Your father is flatly wrong about his claim that the present tense is "the continuous tense." It is not. It can be linear, iterative, futuristic, historical, gnomic, among others, but it is not continuous.

    In the case of 1 John 3:9, the present tense is clearly gnomic, meaning that it is a statement of law or principle. We see the gnomic used when the writer wishes to create a test by which we can know something. Since John fashions such a test in verse 10, it's clear that the use is gnomic. If it were something other than gnomic, and any sin were allowed in a true believer, then the test would be worthless.

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  13. Servant of Jehova Most HighJune 2, 2009 at 8:19 PM

    I am sorry for my earlier anger. I overstepped my bounds, and did an all around poor job of explaining why I do not believe as you do. I will do my best to keep myself in check in the future.

    I would appreciate it if you would better explain your view of Revelation 2:18-29. I would quote the post, but copy/paste does not work with this comment box. :D The second to last post you made, though, before the discussion on Greek (incidentally, there seems to be another post on that topic that is missing), the second to last paragraph. I'm going to outline my views on what I see there, so that you can hopefully clear it up.

    I see two possible meanings to what you said, A) That the people in Revelation 2 are not, and never were, saved, or B) They would lose their salvation if they did not repent of their sin with Jezebel.

    By what I know of your beliefs, you do not believe in losing salvation, so I'll just deal with the frist interpretation. The people in Revelation 2 never were saved. To me, this presents a clear problem. Christ clearly calls them his servants. I have no other way of interpreting this as his recognition of their salvation. Would God call unredeemed men his servants? No! Even those that will be cast into the Lake of Fire after casting out demons in Christ's name are told by Christ that he never knew them. Christ would not call them servants if they were not really servants. Did they then deceive God into thinking they were redeemed when they were not? Impossible!

    I don't see the logic in saying that they are not saved. If my rhetorical questions are put wrong, or if I somehow misunderstood what you said, would you please explain? It is very possible that I might have gotten it wrong somewhere. If I did, please show me where.

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  14. SoJ, I finally found some time to answer your most recent comment.

    Regarding Revelation 2:18-29, Jesus never calls anyone in that church his servants. He says,

    "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols."

    Jezebel seduces someone called "servants" to commit fornication and eat what they shouldn't, but it doesn't say that they are in this church in Thyatira.

    Notice that He says, "And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not."

    Apparently Jezebel has been doing this in the past, for there has been some time between her seduction and now, for she has had time ("space") to repent. And what is she doing now? She teaches and seduces His servants to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols.

    Does it say that the servants of Jesus actually do these things? No. It says only that she seduces them to do so.

    What happens to people who actually follow her teaching? They are judged with her, and only repentance will allow them to escape the judgment.

    Verse 24 indicates that there are people in the church who follow her teachings and others who don't, and it is clear that only those who do not follow these teachings will be rewarded.

    Throughout the letters to the churches we see rewards given to those who over come:

    To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    (Continued in next comment)

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  15. When we put these together we see a clear theme. Those who overcome the problems in the church are the saved ones, including Thyatira. The faithful ones escape the judgment of Jezebel and receive "power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star."

    Although these might not be traditional signs of salvation, when considered together with the other rewards of overcomers, it should be clear that these also are rewards of those truly saved. Certainly the ones who are judged with Jezebel aren't saved.

    It's also interesting to note that since what Jezebel did in the past is clearly in parallel with what another church was warned about:

    But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. (Revelation 2:14)

    The sinful acts were exactly the same, and some people in the church held to the teaching of someone from the past. It appears to be exactly the same idea as in the case of Jezebel.

    I believe these people in both churches parallel exactly what is going on in the modern church. Those who hold to the sinning Christian doctrine are those who hold to the teaching of Balaam and Jezebel, enticing people to sin by telling them that sin is normal and unavoidable. They are the ones who will be judged.

    And, by the way, God can call an unbeliever His servant:

    "Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, 'Because you have not obeyed My words, behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,' declares the LORD, 'and I will send to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will utterly destroy them and make them a horror and a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. (Jeremiah 25:8-9)

    Nebuchadnezzar was an idol worshiper, yet God called him His servant. The people Israel were called God's servants as a whole many times, and they were the ones Jezebel and Balaam (through Balak) sought to bring down through immorality.

    I hope that answers your questions.

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